Smart Athlete Podcast Ep. 12 - Dr. Greg Grosicki - TRUST YOUR GUT - Part 3 of 3

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JESSE: I saw study a little while back, I actually asked my registered dietician about and she had no idea what I was talking about. But you seem like the guy to ask. The study said something about like, foreigners coming to the US and I think the phrase that they had used was after they spent, it was like a year plus in the US that their microbiome, they use something like the word destroy. But I think you would probably characterize it thinking about what you said, so far, it's probably changed rather than destroyed. Do you know what I'm talking about first of all, but these people also gained a significant amount of weight, which may or may not have to do with their microbiome. The implication seems to be that there's something bad about the US that these people gateway is kind of where it seemed like this study was or the author who was signing the study was trying to point to if you know what I'm talking about. GREG: Yeah. JESSE: What would you do with those people I guess to try to make them not overweight anymore? GREG: Yeah. Well, fortunately for them, it's not just coming to the US, right? It's their lifestyles when they get to the US. So, if you think about someone maybe was a foreigner how they were getting to work, transportation probably going to be different. They might have gone from walking or in Boston, even I would either ride the bike or take the T. Now, I live in Georgia, public transportation’s horrendous. The roads, there's no bike lanes and so I drive. I sit in the car every day for 20 minutes to get to and from work. Do you think about that every day, right, throughout the year, the activity pattern’s different, that is going to influence intestinal transit time or said another word how quickly food moves through my gut. So, that's going to have profound implications for the bacteria and my gut. Another probably more obvious one is just the differences in what they're eating nutritionally, right. So, they're going from diets that are probably pretty rich and Whole Foods, things that are-- or nothing is really processed and high in fiber. And fiber in particular is one of the nutrients that is emerging as fantastic for the bacteria in our gut and that encourages the growth of many healthy bacterial species. They come to the US, they're busy, right? They're driving and where do they stop for dinner? KFC. Nothing wrong with KFC or cookout or Wendy's. And so they're eating these diets that are really high in saturated fats, and very low in fiber and vegetables and fruits. And so what's that doing? It's changing the composition of the gut bacteria. We're going to promote the growth of species that are not good for you, species that are going to cause things such as leaky gut, which is going to trigger systemic inflammation and chronic disease, and just bacterial species that are associated with all other sorts of adverse health consequences. So, fortunately, is not moving to the US, right, but the lifestyle changes that accompany that move to the US. So, I think it's more a lifestyle and behavioral modification associated with living in a sedentary country like this. JESSE: Yeah. And I mean, that's great to hear too just like, it says, stuff like that pops up, and you're like, okay, I don't think that's actually the case. It's like we were saying earlier is that misattribution of the results from a study for a particular narrative of whatever they want to sell, whatever the narrative is. So, it's like, you gotta find the person who actually knows what's going on to try to like clarify things. I’m like watching the clock because I know, you got a student coming in here. GREG: It’s okay. He's getting to take the quiz early. JESSE: Just trying to make sure we're on time because I watched your lecture was 50 minutes. And I'm like, we could probably be on call for three hours if we like really wanted to deep dive in every everything. So, I’m like trying not to go too deep, but get enough information. So, I'm kind of curious, like how with the research you do figuring out all this, does that inform in any way how you train or how you train the athletes that are under you? GREG: It does. The microbiome stuff, somewhat. Again, I'm not a registered dietitian so, I tried to do-- I try to stay away from too much nutritional advice. But I do like a lot of the stuff I've learned in school, and I even teach a sports nutrition class. So, the recommendations I'll give to the athletes I coach for carb loading, for example, going into an event or even how much to eat or drink when they're out training and racing, those kinds of things will definitely inform my coaching. Right now, I'm doing a study. One of my master's students was super interested in thermoregulation. So, the effect of temperature and humidity on performance, and I live in Savannah right now, right, so obviously, basically live in the jungle. And so she was like all interested in doing this really long training study. And I was like listen, that's not going to be possible. But one of the things I find with the athletes I coach is-- some of them from time to time, their numbers outside versus inside are just so different. And they get on the trainer, and all of sudden, they can't get close to the powers they're putting outside. And then I'll just ask them the seemingly obvious question, are you using a fan? And they're like, no. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh. And so like, we're doing a study right now comparing physiological responses to training with and without a fan, just like a single session. So, that's kind of like a cool master's thesis project. JESSE: Are you quantifying the speed of the fan? Like how much airflow there is? GREG: Yeah, we have an anemometer which measures the speed. And so we're using the fan at a set wind speed versus just during the session without the fan. But at the same, we're keeping heart rate fixed between the sessions looking at how much theoretically, what's the difference and how much work you can do? And then what is the metabolic implications of that? So, we're measuring blood lactate between the two to see if that has any effect. We're looking at oxygen consumption, caloric expenditure, perceived exertion, a whole sundry of measures. JESSE: Right. One thing I'm always interested about and like with exercise studies is how do you control for levels of fatigue between training sessions in a study? GREG: Yeah. So fortunately, this is just three time points study. They do a max test, and they come in and have two training sessions. You know, doing things like make sure it's same day of the week and same time of day for Cronenberg biological control helps, we tell them not exercise for 24 hours prior. But besides that, I mean you can only control so much of someone's life. So, if they do something like, go see the Avengers the night before, and they come in and they slept three hours. You know, that's just, I mean, you can only tell them so much, right. And so part of that is getting enough participants that, hopefully-- JESSE: That’s what I was going to say I was like, saying, hopefully-- Yeah, it's like you get-- if your sample size is 40 versus your sample size is 1,000 that should hopefully smooth out a lot of those variations. I don't clearly conduct a lot of like primary research myself, though, I had some classes and a little bit of experience with it for my psychology degree, psychology and math, the oddest combination ever. So, it's like sometimes I think about that stuff and I don't think all the way through it. Like I said, it just kind of strikes me because I know I can-- with my coach we’ll do the same training session and I have a two up one down periodization block. And we can do it, two blocks back to back, say we do the exact same block, just two one, the next two, one. And I can have really nice increase, or for some reason, maybe I'm extra fatigued, and like the second time, which should be better because you should have that bump after the recovery, it's just not. So, I'm like anytime I see the exercise studies, and then like the end number’s really low. Like, okay, you didn't have that many participants. Like did you control for all those things? How do you control for all those things? I didn't know if there was like, a method or something you could use. GREG: Exercise is so potent though, right, that sometimes you don't need a huge end. Yeah, and then getting subjects is hard. No wonder if you graduated - their master's degree if I made them get too many subjects. But yeah, we try our best. JESSE: So, you need 1,000 people to do a VO2 max test on the treadmill and then there yeah, now it'd be-- GREG: Yeah, ride for 40 minutes on a very hard bike seat. JESSE: Gonna be tough. GREG: ...out 50 heart rates, like it was pretty hard, you know. Yeah, we do our best. JESSE: Yeah. So, did you meet-- Have you met Todd Buckingham? GREG: Yeah. JESSE: I always assume. So, I was like, he was gathering all of his data from people at the National Championship, which I thought was a clever way to try to get a larger sample size. GREG: Yeah, yeah. Yes. That's clever. JESSE: So, kind of, I want to follow up with something that went on with you personally, I read you had a small labral tear in your hip? GREG: Yep. Still do. JESSE: ?? 10:40> cortisone injection GREG: Yeah. JESSE: So, how are you doing now? Still doing okay? GREG: Pretty good. Yeah, it was funnily enough, I guess like Todd has one too. I don't know if he told you that. JESSE: Yeah, I know. GREG: And yeah, I've had, like, I had a lot of friends have it happen before. So, when I felt it going into Kona, I was like, this is what it is. Unfortunately, I didn't go get it looked at until after and I thought I was probably done. And then I actually got in touch with a couple of physical therapists who do a bit more research. There's a lady named Lindsay Class actually, who reached out and told me about her experience with it and all the research she does. There’s a guy named Mike Ryman at Duke, who's a PT and a PhD. And they've done a lot of research comparing operative versus non operative treatment of labral tears in athletes. And it seems the data would suggest right now that there's really no better end result with getting surgery for these labral tears than there is just using physical therapy and not doing operative therapy for it. Like the end result, six months one year after the fact is usually about the same between the two groups. So, after that, I was pretty set on not getting surgery. And I actually went to Atlanta to see like one of the best people in the country for it. He goes, yeah, man, just try a cortisone shot, see how it works. And that seemed to settle it down. I've actually done some dry needling push, very unscientifically, I could not tell you the merits of, but it seemed to help. And yeah, it's pretty good for now. So, - knock on wood. JESSE: Yeah. It's just like, it seems to be so common and I know my girlfriend, I just gotten into running and she had only been running for a year and it happened to her. She did end up doing ?? 12:40> surgery and she doesn't come from an athletic background. So, that's one of the things I'm interested in too, just on a personal level is like the difference between athletes that have it and come back, which seemed to have like a greater resiliency since you already have the musculature in stronger ligaments, and all of that, from history versus somebody like her who didn't come from an athletic background. It was kind of getting into it, and then got derailed. GREG: Yeah, the funny thing is so I don't know if you heard this, but 75% of people, asymptomatic if they were put in an MRI machine, it would be found that they have labral tear. JESSE: And I saw like GREG: Yeah. So yeah, it's interesting. It's a good money maker for the orthopedists. JESSE: Yeah. So, as I told you, I was trying to set up a time to chat with Richard, and I was trying to get some intel on you, something I couldn't find from your Instagram. Richard told me you have a baby on the way, is that? GREG: Yeah, in August. JESSE: So, does that mean no more training just start - baby time or what's going to happen once the baby’s here? GREG: I wouldn't-- My wife would like me as a person if I wasn't doing any training. No, I'll still be training but it's going to be-- my sessions are going to have to be very high quality and a little bit lower quantity. I've never been a big proponent of big training. When I did, Kona, I think I pushed myself too much and I was doing all 17 hours a week, and I think that was way too much for me. I tend I tend to thrive off 10 to 12, with the occasional 13 or 14 hour week. And so when baby comes, I think it's going to be more probably more that eight to 10 window. I don't mind waking up at four in the morning although I may already be up. JESSE: Like you may already be up. That’s what I was thinking. GREG: But it's definitely put triathlon, it's kind of nice because it kind of puts life into perspective a bit for me. It's more important, obviously, than work or triathlon, so I think it's probably good. That's going to be a change. JESSE: This is something I see around here a lot so I think it’s just kind of an important question. Are you going to get a running stroller and be ?? 15:20> GREG: For sure. I don't know if you saw the lady who ran the 121 I guess she set the record 121, it was like six months or eight months after she gave birth ran a 121 at this ?? 15:33> stroller. So, it's like already been decided upon, right, that that's the one we're going to get. But I guess you can't even run with them until they get like, a little bit older because you don't want to shake them around too much. JESSE: Right, right, you get the neck stability, you can't just like strap them in and go for it. GREG: Yeah, yeah. So, yeah definitely getting not not sparing any expense when it comes to stroller purchases. That's like I think like a next goal, right? It's like well, done Boston, done Kona, now I want to win a 5K with the stroller. JESSE: You outright win. GREG: So, that is not overly competitive. JESSE: Okay. Okay, so you're going to go hunting for one and fear out like, all right. You know, normally, maybe I'd run a 15, I can think I can do it 16:30 with a stroller. GREG: Exactly. Yeah. Try to like sabotage the one guy who ?? 16:36>. JESSE: Well, I think if you put a helmet on the baby assuming we got neck stability, put a helmet on the baby so nothing's going to go wrong. You just use the stroller as like a bumper car almost, and just like start taking out people's legs from behind. They’ll be like, they’ll either have to go out harder and then they'll gas themselves or they'll just decide get behind you and stay in line. GREG: And I have a pretty ?? 17:01> dog so I’ll just fix her to the front of the stroller. JESSE: That can work too. GREG: ...be a force to be reckoned with people trippin all over us. JESSE: I hope you put that on your Instagram, that will be pretty interesting to see. GREG: Yeah. I don't know what the wife would think about that. JESSE: Say get your wife to like the finish line with you gotta have like the whole I'll call a train at this point since we've got you and the baby and the stroller and the dog. The train coming through with the finish line and the time clock. GREG: Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. So, yeah. JESSE: So, you listen to Chris's episode, so you know I asked everybody this question because it is particular to you because you study the gut. But it's universal to eat food. So, I'm always curious if every had one food they can eat for recovery for the rest of your life, only one food; what would you choose? GREG: Oh, man. I mean am I allowed to just give you like a genre like Mexican or it is-- JESSE: No. Like is a burrito, is it a taco, is it like a chewy chong. Are you eating Tex-Mex? Are you eating authentic Mexican, like what? You gotta give me something a little more specific. GREG: It’d definitely be a burrito with an ice beer. JESSE: Okay. Like I said, it's always curious just because I feel like you read all these articles and everybody says, oh, you should eat this or you should eat that. But at least so far with my interviews, it's like every has a little mundane answer. GREG: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, the best thing for recovery hands down would be chocolate milk, which I'd follow it up with some ice cream or a milkshake. Chocolate milk is undoubtedly the best thing for recovery if you're looking just from a health perspective. You're replenishing glycogen and repairing muscle. So, it's the two for-- JESSE: I had Dr. Jason Karp on, as far as I remember, he's one of the original people that did this study that showed that chocolate milk actually has that efficacy. GREG: ?? 19:15> JESSE: Huh? GREG: From James Madison? JESSE: I'm not sure. GREG: Okay. Because the chocolate milk study I think was done by Mike Saunders, then James Madison. JESSE: Okay. I guess that's what he had said something about that and I may be misquoting him. I’d have to go back to his episode. But I know he said-- GREG: It's called the chocolate milk study, I think in PubMed. JESSE: Yeah. I feel like he said he was either a part of that or did-- it's been two months since I spoke to him. So, it's like-- GREG: Where is he, do you know? JESSE: He lives in San Diego, but he's a big running guy. He's written like eight books, and does all this research. And there's a lot of people, there's a lot of people, I mean, as we know, people are very interconnected. But there's also like these people just outliers - be like, I should know that person. GREG: Yeah. But yeah, functionality is the chocolate milk, but I'm just trusting my gut, you know, the burito’s hard to beat. JESSE: Solid. All right. Greg, if people want to follow you so they can make sure they are not being lied to by pop articles, where can they find you? GREG: Yeah, so it's Dr. Greg Grosicki on Instagram and Twitter. JESSE: Good deal. Thanks for coming on today, Greg. GREG: I appreciate it. Yeah. Good talking to you, Jesse. Go to Part 2 Go to Part 1