Smart Athlete Podcast Ep. 79 - Dr. Bob Murray - PRACTICAL EXERCISE PHYSIOLOGY

BOB: Well, it did have to do with knowing somebody from Gatorade because when I was a Ph.D. student at Ohio State, my professor in one of my classes asked for volunteers for a study, research study. So, I thought, well, that sounds like it would be interesting. And it turned out to be a study sponsored by Gatorade. And so I met some of those Gatorade employees at the time.
Smart Athlete Podcast Ep. 79 - Dr. Bob Murray - PRACTICAL EXERCISE PHYSIOLOGY

BOB: Well, it did have to do with knowing somebody from Gatorade because when I was a Ph.D. student at Ohio State, my professor in one of my classes asked for volunteers for a study, research study. So, I thought, well, that sounds like it would be interesting. And it turned out to be a study sponsored by Gatorade. And so I met some of those Gatorade employees at the time.

I stayed in touch with them at scientific meetings over the years after I graduated and gone to become a professor at Boise State University in Idaho. And when the position opened in 1985, to create an internal exercise physiology laboratory for Gatorade, they, fortunately, remembered me and gave me an opportunity to apply. Everything worked out. So, I left the mountains of Idaho for the flatlands of Chicago and been here ever since.

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JESSE: Welcome to the Smart Athlete Podcast. I’m your host, Jesse funk. My guest today has his Ph.D. in exercise physiology. He is the co-founder of the Gatorade Sports Science Institute. So, really happy to have him here. He is a fellow of the American College of Sports Medicine and co-author of The Practical Guide to Exercise Physiology, which I am fortunate enough to have a copy of. Welcome to the show, Dr. Bob Murray.

BOB: Hey. Thank you, Jesse.

JESSE: As I was saying before we got going, Dr. Bob, people don’t know, because we’ve been talking, we had a little mix up. So, I appreciate you making the adjustments to still spend some time with me. I always love just having the opportunity to speak to people like you. I know the Gatorade’s Sport Science Institute is a big name for a lot of people that are interested in this field in general. I’ll say Sports Science just to cover us. But because they do so much research, having you here is wonderful. So, thank you for joining me.

BOB: You’re welcome. I’m looking forward to it.

JESSE: Yeah. So, I want to ask about that a little bit. You made the transition and correct me if I’m wrong at any point, made the transition from coaching to founding the institute. How did it all come about? Were you just like hanging out? Did you know people from Gatorade? How did that connection get made?

BOB: Well, it did have to do with knowing somebody from Gatorade because when I was a Ph.D. student at Ohio State, my professor in one of my classes asked for volunteers for a study, research study. So, I thought, well, that sounds like it would be interesting. And it turned out to be a study sponsored by Gatorade. And so I met some of those Gatorade employees at the time.

I stayed in touch with them at scientific meetings over the years after I graduated and gone to become a professor at Boise State University in Idaho. And when the position opened in 1985, to create an internal exercise physiology laboratory for Gatorade, they, fortunately, remembered me and gave me an opportunity to apply. Everything worked out. So, I left the mountains of Idaho for the flatlands of Chicago and been here ever since.

JESSE: See, it’s always interesting. So, I talked to a lot of people who have very interesting stories. And when you look back, you have that hindsight, it always looks like everything’s very kind of neat. It’s like, well, we met up, we kept in touch, and in this narrative that gets built up for us and for you, in particular, to kind of be able to found these things almost seems like luck, right? I don’t necessarily believe so much in luck, at least in the large part. But have you ever had anybody say, well, you’re just lucky to have done this or that, or do you feel that way yourself?

BOB: No, I don’t feel lucky. And I quickly correct people. There’s a big difference between being lucky and being fortunate. And I feel like I’ve been very fortunate. Not only in the decisions that I made, because as you alluded it’s often a very broken road, a very messy path beginning what you think you’re gonna end up doing with your life and what you actually end up doing.

And that was certainly the case for me. Because I started off wanting to be a high school physical education teacher and coach. And when I realized that that wasn’t the right fit for me, then I got my master’s degree and started working at the university level. And I realized that I didn’t know enough to feel comfortable. And I went back and got my Ph.D. thinking that I’d spend the rest of my life as a college professor.

But when the Gatorade opportunity came along, I realized it was kind of a once in a lifetime chance to try something new and different. So, leaving academia was one of the toughest decisions I’ve ever made. Because I really enjoyed teaching, I enjoyed the university environment, but it turns out to be the best decision I’ve made.

Because the experience I had at Gatorade, the challenges, the people I met, the opportunities I had professionally and personally just wouldn’t have been matched had I stayed where I was. So, I consider myself very fortunate to be not at the right place at the right time, meeting the right people, but also making the right decisions and believing that hard work eventually pays off.

JESSE: Thinking about that decision to leave, you know, I speak to a lot of academics, and I speak to a lot of people in private enterprise as well, working in some of the companies kind of working on, I’ll say exercise tech, as a general bubble. Could be wearables or measuring devices, any of that kind of stuff. And I’ve talked to at least one person in my mind, who’s kind of been on the fence of, should I leave academia? Should I go back to– Like, should I leave private enterprise? Should I go back? Like they kind of waffled between the two.

Do you recall or have you built up any kind of feelings on how to make that decision when a big opportunity presents itself? Because I think we all find ourselves at crossroads sooner or later, right? Where it’s, do I do this? Or do I do that? Sometimes major, sometimes minor. But how do you come to the decision to take that leap, to leave where you thought you should be and try this new thing that at the time, obviously, wasn’t anything resembling what it is today?

BOB: Yeah. Well, for me, it was just a matter of number one having the opportunity and sort of being pursued in that regard. So, that was nice. And second, it was me sitting back and thinking, Okay, I’ve been in academia now for eight years. I am super comfortable. I really like it. But as I look another eight or 10 years or 20 years down the line, I see me doing pretty much the same thing.

And you know, I wasn’t 100% convinced that I’d be happy with that. So, when the opportunity to join in the corporate world came along, I was young enough at that time thinking that okay, if this is a big mistake it’s not going to be the worst thing that’s ever happened to me. So, let me take the leap and give it five years.

But 23 years later, I was still in the corporate world, with still a foot in academia. So, that really helped. It was not an easy transition. It was a real culture shock for me. Took me a good six months to feel comfortable in my corporate shoes. But after that, it was fine.

JESSE: So, I know, from speaking to academics that I’ve mentioned, that oftentimes, like funding for the kind of research they want to do can be difficult. And I think when I speak to people that have funding for their research, they’re always, I’m very fortunate to have this grant, I’m very happy to have and be able to do what I want to do.

How does that situation work at Gatorade? Are you directed by the company, “Hey, we want to know about this. Can you go look into it?” Or is it Dr. Bob saying, “Hey, Mr. CEO, I’d love to look at these things. I think they could positively affect the company.” Or how does that interplay of figuring out what to research happen in that environment?

BOB: Well, in the 20 years that I was there, I had pretty much carte blanche in what we did with our extramural research funding. So, the company relied upon us to make those kinds of decisions in concert with our business partners on the business side of Gatorade. To make sure that what we were doing both internally and externally met their needs, what their goals and objectives were. But then, yeah, who we worked with the precise nature of the project was all left up to us. So, it was an absolutely ideal situation.

JESSE: Yeah, it was like that’s what I was kind of hoping the situation was just to think about if you come from an academic background, and you enjoy the research, and if funding is one of the biggest blockades in your way of doing what you want to do, then being in an environment where you’re like, I can pretty much kind of study the whole kind of neat, interesting little things about sport in these areas that I want to seems like the ideal situation to be in.

BOB: Yeah, it was a wonderful situation to be in. I feel blessed to have had that opportunity. And very fortunate that everybody in the senior management of Gatorade at that time was super supportive. And just said, “Listen, we hired you because you have the expertise that we don’t have. So, go ahead and do what you think needs to be done. Let us know the results of what you discover, and we’ll make our decisions accordingly.” And that’s the way it unfolded for the next two-plus decades.

JESSE: Yeah, yeah. So, then I guess the next question is, how do you make the leap from I’m working in private enterprise to I’m bringing out a book and where it is Dr. Kenny come into play? Was he also at Gatorade with you? Or?

BOB: Well, I’ll tell you. I left Gatorade in 2008 to start my own consulting company. And at that time, Larry Kenny was the chairman of the Gatorade Scientific Advisory Board. I’ve known Larry since 1990. You know, we’re obviously in the same field. He’s always been a professor at Penn State of [??? 11:55] the American College of Sports Medicine, very highly regarded, nationally and internationally.

So, when Larry said that he had a project that he thought that we could work on together, I just jumped at the opportunity. Because, as you may know, Larry’s undergraduate textbook, which is this beast about Physiology of Sport and Exercise. This is the best selling undergraduate textbook in the country. But it’s big, it’s heavy, it’s thick. And for undergraduate exercise physiology majors, it’s ideal. It’s a great textbook.

But for those many, many people who aren’t majoring in exercise physiology, but still have an interest in sports or fitness, we thought there needs to be something else. Another resource that’s not as big, not as thick, not as heavy, and not as scientifically dense. And so we wrote the first edition of The Practical Guide to Exercise Physiology, which came out in 2016. With the intent of creating something that was, I don’t want to say, it’s not a dumbed-down version of Larry’s book, but it’s just a lighter version.

So that I kind of tried to put myself in the shoes of a personal trainer or fitness instructor thinking what information do I need to have if I’m just getting into exercise physiology? Or if I’ve had an exercise physiology course or two in the past, but need my memory refreshed; what kind of resource do I need?

So, when I wrote The Practical Guide to Exercise Physiology, I kind of kept that framework in mind to provide information that could be used immediately. That was highly practical but science-based, but more toward the practical side with as little text as possible, and as many pictures and illustrations as we could cram into it.

And that’s now the second edition of The Practical Guide to Exercise Physiology, which I think it’s a much-improved cover, and the content is equally revised and hopefully improved. And now that this one just came out, I’ve already started working on the third edition, just by taking notes and updating the science that’s come out since the publication process.

JESSE: So, it’s interesting that you said that was the goal. Because what I noticed going through the book, and trying to digest all what’s going on because although I have some background maybe even too much to say. But I have some knowledge about exercise physiology just by being an athlete, being around, being in that environment, interviewing people, all that kind of stuff, but it was not my major in any shape and form. So, going through the book, the thing I noticed the most was the breadth of topics covered. And at the same time, it’s not a cursory examination of everything.

You do get important details yet, it’s not too heady either. That was the thing that stuck out to me most was that you cover so many things, so many specific situations, not just like, hey, let’s talk about VO2 max. And then here’s what it is and that’s it. Like there’s way more information. And that comes up in a number of areas. But it isn’t so thick that you’re like, I need another course before I can even begin to digest this book. So, I think if you’ll allow me to give some assessment for whatever my opinion is worth, I think you’ve accomplished your goal.

BOB: Well good, I’m really happy to hear that. It makes me feel that we were on the right track right from the get-go. So, thanks. I appreciate that.

JESSE: Yeah.

BOB: I also wanted to have a text where somebody could pick it up, go through any spot and it’s not a book that needs to be read from front to back. You know, if somebody finds something of interest, they can just dive into it there. And hopefully, it’ll all makes sense to them even if they’re missing some of the fundamental background. I also wanted a book that people could look at and get as much from the illustrations as they do from the text.

Because I know a lot of people don’t have the time or the dedication to read every single word, but enjoy looking at illustrations and figures. And so we tried to make those come to life for those individuals who just wanted to take a look at the visual part of it.

JESSE: Yeah. Inside the book, there’s a lot of I’ll just say just illustrated examples, but also extra images. But then things are laid out nicely as well. Like, when I got to the section, and this is something I think about a lot as an endurance athlete, fatigue and thinking about page 70. But it’s talking about all the different ways that your body fatigues through various kinds of exercise. And that’s something that I think as any athlete who participates in their sport, they know inherently, hey, this thing makes me tired.

And I can’t do it anymore. Right? But it’s like a very concise way to dive into what kind of exercise are you doing, and what is your limiter? And then, in essence, you can think about how can we improve that limiter by focusing on this is the thing that’s stopping me all in half a page. Like, that’s the nice concise version of what we’ve got going on.

BOB: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s exactly what we tried to achieve. Let’s distill everything, the most important stuff down into the smallest package possible, keep it understandable, keep it accurate, and make it a practical value.

JESSE: Yeah, yeah. One thing I wanted to ask you about and see if I can find it. Tried to make notes about pages, but this one, I did not. Think training at altitude, special exceptions to the back of the book. I particular– Okay. Yeah. I, in particular, so I live in Kansas City, as I mentioned to you before we got going. We’re not particularly high in altitude. But our neighbors in Colorado are this. I guess a year ago now, it was last November 1st, I went out and ran the incline.

My coach and I had been looking for a new challenge for me. And my college coach had always said to me because he’s from Colorado Springs, “Hey, you need to run the incline.” I’m assuming you’re familiar with what the incline is. If not, it’s just shy of a mile-long trail in Colorado Springs or Manitou Springs, in particular. It averages about a 45% grade. So, it’s a very difficult trail, and it starts at 6,000 feet, ends at 8,000 feet.

So, you mentioned training for altitude and the kind of almost pointlessness of it if you’re just going to spend a few weeks and then come back and how, you know, it doesn’t do the effect we quite want it to. But you mentioned something my current coach had mentioned to me and that is showing up to a race as close to race time as possible if you’re going from low to high. But it doesn’t really explain too much of why that is. Can you share that with me? It’s really just a personal interest. Why is it that you want to show up as close to race time as possible because you have no time to adjust to altitude? So, why is that beneficial?

BOB: Right. It’s beneficial because adjusting to altitude takes time. And so if you don’t have the luxury of being able to spend weeks at altitude before a competition, the best bet in any type of a sport is just to get there as soon as you can before the competition and hope for the best. Because that process of acclimating to altitude initially involves a decrease in performance for a variety of reasons. And so you don’t want to risk that aspect of it by getting there a few days beforehand and suffering from dehydration or sleep disturbance and so on. So, you’re better off just taking your fitness self to the event and hoping for the best.

JESSE: Okay, that makes sense. It makes a little more sense now, where it’s like, you’re not going to have any adaptation, but you’re also trying to avoid all the negative effects of, hey, I’ve just been here for a few days. And now I’m starting to go downhill before I get the ramp up again, with extra red blood cells and all that kind of thing. Right?

BOB: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And obviously, that takes time.

JESSE: Right. That’s the thing I talk about. So, I do another show on running. And that’s the thing I kind of heart more than anything is consistency over time, because no matter what adaptation your body is doing, it doesn’t happen overnight. So, you kind of have to wait. Like, there’s almost a hurry up and wait mentality, right?

Where you do whatever your training load is, you’ve decreased your fitness by breaking down muscle, and then you’ve gotta wait for your body to recover and compensate for that load. And there’s nothing you can do to speed that up. Well, I won’t say nothing. But relatively speaking, you can’t make it go– If it takes 24 hours to recover, you can’t make yourself recover in two hours.

BOB: Yeah. Yeah. And that that’s an extraordinarily important and very much underappreciated aspect of training. Because all the good stuff happens during recovery, during the rest period between training sessions. The training is a stimulus. Now, we have to wait for a response. The harder we train, the longer we’re going to have to wait to get the optimized response. But there’s a lot of things in that time that we can do to facilitate it. Staying well-hydrated, eating right, resting, and sleeping correctly.

All these things help facilitate the response to the adaptations that we’re looking for. And for most athletes who are highly motivated, working hard is not a problem. Working too hard, too often, too much workload, too steep increases from week to week in workload; all of those are the negatives that hold people back. And having the right stimulus for athletes, most athletes, it’s not an issue at all. Having the right amount of recovery is.

JESSE: I know, and again, I wish I don’t think I made a mark where this was. But you talked talking about, I believe personalization in here when you’re thinking about designing a training schedule for a particular individual, right. And I think that’s one of the largest challenges for any coach, any trainer, anybody in charge of trying to maximize somebody’s fitness is how do we dial in just the right amount of load to the right amount of rest for this particular person?

And, again, I’ve forgotten so if it’s in the book, I apologize. Is there a shortcut way to figure that out? Or is it a matter of we’ve got to build up some data about this individual and figure out how they respond over time and then adjust? Or can we do– Is there any kind of like shortcut test to say, hey, let’s do these field tests. Now we know, you’re probably gonna respond this way or that way?

BOB: Yeah. Mostly, it’s a matter of trial and error. And even if a coach integrates some field testing to try to get a sense of whether the– how the person is going to respond, that’s still trial and error. So, the book talks in a couple of sections about fast responders and slow responders to exercise. So, if you take a group of people, males and females, variety of ages, doesn’t matter. Introduce them to the same training program, you’re going to have some who respond very, very quickly.

And others who are going to take a long, long time to respond. Now, everybody eventually responds. But those slow responders, they’re the ones who appear to be more sensitive to the overreaching and overtraining. You know, the fast responders are great. They’re the ones obviously they get the stimulus, they have a fast recovery period, they’re ready to go again. You know, that’s the ideal. A lot of us are much slower to respond and can’t withstand a high workload day after day.

JESSE: So, thinking about the difference between the two, does that imply that slower responders have a lower ceiling for maximal fitness? You know what I mean?

BOB: No. No. Not at all. It just indicates that slow responders need more rest and recovery.

JESSE: Okay. Okay. As I was reading that section, you know, thinking about that, again, it’s like if you’re in exercise at all, you go through the book, a lot of these things are familiar somewhat intuitively if you’ve worked out for any period of time. But then it kind of lays it out a little more bare, a little more plain terms. And you’re like, okay, the light turns on, so to speak, where you can see things more plainly.

So, that’s why I saw that and it’s just some of these things kind of come to mind because I did not write the book, and not capable of writing a book like this. So, it’s like, those questions I haven’t thought about before start to come up. And then I’m like, I need to get Dr. Bob on and ask him all the clarifying questions.

BOB: You’re the perfect target audience for the book. Because you know, you’re motivated, you’re an athlete, you want to learn more, you want to try to improve. You have a good sense of science, you like science. And so it’s just a matter of giving you the information you need to make it worthwhile [??? 26:39].

JESSE: Yeah, and it’s definitely, I know, it’s going on my bookshelf, and I’ve actually already even had it– So, my other running show where I just talked about running kind of, through my experience in research, that kind of stuff. It’s already been on the shelf behind me for a few episodes as I kind of reference things. But we haven’t done our conversation yet, so I wasn’t able to reference our conversation. But before we run out of time, I want to get a couple more questions out of you.

Thinking about the section on training in heat versus cold. And I believe it mentions training and heat, although heat degrades our performance faster than training in cold depending on the temperature, obviously, that the response from training in heat means generally better overall fitness regardless of temperature compared to training and cold. Since you and I both live in climates that get pretty cold over the wintertime, is there any point or way of trying to continue to train in the heat over the winter? Or is it a matter of just do your best in adapting to the heat when the summer comes?

BOB: No, there’s a real advantage to training in the heat year round if you can. Because all the changes that occurred to help us adjust to acclimate to the heat, help improve our fitness. You know, greater blood volume is one of the most important ones. Better ability to sweat and to sweat over more of our body, to lose heat, to keep ourselves cool. All of those are adjustments that help overall performance.

So, in the cold months, just putting on extra clothes when your workout is enough to cause your body temperature to rise a little bit higher than it normally would. And that’s a great stimulus. Obviously, we don’t want to overdo that and risk heat illness. As long as we’re sweating and our body temperature is going up, we’ll gain the advantages of improved fitness simply from the training, as well as an added boost to fitness from staying acclimated to the heat.

JESSE: And this is all those little nitty-gritty things that I think add up to getting to each of our individuals, like potential as athletes, right? It’s getting enough sleep, getting enough food, getting enough water. Because as you mentioned, training hard is probably the least of our worries. But I think there’s little stuff like, you know, training in the heat, knowing hey if I do acclimate to the heat, I’m probably going to reap at least a marginal gain compared to if I say– I guess I don’t know what the temperatures are in the summer where you are. I’m gonna guess they’re similar go probably 90s, to 100 within the hottest part of summer.

BOB: Yeah.

JESSE: And if you decide, hey, I’m gonna stay inside where it’s 70 and it’s air-conditioned versus I’m gonna get outside, I could reap a little more gains by being outside in that environment instead of kind of catering to that, I’ll call it lazy mind of, hey, I just want to be cool and a little more comfortable during this uncomfortable section of training.

BOB: Yeah. Well, I’ve seen so many athletes make kind of rookie mistakes with hydration and nutrition and just training that I really hope that this book can help people avoid some of those two steps forward one step back scenarios that a lot of athletes find themselves in.

JESSE: Yeah, I know, for me, in particular, I think what I’ll be using the book for is that, even though as I mentioned numerous times, talking to you, a lot of these things are somewhat intuitive. But just, if I admit to myself that my brain is simply fallible that I forget things, it’s easy to go back to the book and say, “Wait, am I right about that thing? Am I remembering that right? Is that what I was actually thinking?”

And clarify those things quickly to try to keep yourself on track, instead of getting off track thinking down the wrong direction. And you’re like, oh, no, that doesn’t actually make sense. And that’s been harming me for whatever period of time. So, that’s where I think it’ll be nice for me, in particular, where it’s like, both a quick reference guide, but also enough information to be practically useful. Hence, a practical guide to exercise physiology.

BOB: Yeah, exactly. Hey, listen, I have a story for you that I think sums up a lot of what athletes go through, both physically as well as mentally. And this goes way back to a Super Bowl that was held in Atlanta, and I can’t remember the year. But one of the perks of working for Gatorade was that I got to go to the Super Bowl each year.

And each year, Gatorade would bring a number of different guests. And the year that we were in Atlanta, one of the guests was the great Ironman triathlete, Mark Allen. And it was a terrible weather in Atlanta that year. And so there was no way you could exercise outside. So, anybody who wanted to do a workout went to a health club that was adjacent to the hotel. And it had a small indoor running track [??? 32:12] but it wasn’t legit in any competitive sort of way. But for fitness, you could get on there and run.

So, I, this is obviously at the end of January. And I got on to do a workout just to run. And I noticed after I’d run a few laps that Mark Allen was ready to get on the track. And I thought oh, my God. This is going to be embarrassing. I can’t imagine how quickly and how many times he’s going to lap me. And so I thought I’d kept running. And the more I ran, the more I realized that he wasn’t catching me. In fact, I was catching him. And I’m thinking what’s he, is he injured or sick? What’s the problem here?

So, later that night, I ran into him at a cocktail party. And I said, “Mark, what’s the problem? Are you sick or injured? Or?” He said, “No.” He said, “Every year, I take a month off or two after the Ironman in Kona and I don’t do anything. And so when I start up again in January, which is when we were speaking, he said I just can’t imagine even running a nine-minute mile. I can’t do it.”

And he said, “That’s the stage I’m in now. I’m just trying to get out there and put one foot in front of the other. Mentally, I know I’m going to have to run six-minute miles or less if I want to be successful in next year’s Ironman. I can’t fathom that. But I know from experience that it happens to me this way every year. I just need to put in the time, put in the effort every day, every week, I’ll get a little bit faster, and pretty soon it’ll all come back.”

And Mark was also known as a guy who did a lot of training by himself. And everybody thought that he’s going up to the mountain, desert, altitude, or doing some super-secret workout that only he knows about. And that’s what gives him the advantage. And so I talked to him about that. And he said, “That’s not it at all.” Said, “I just realized that I have to work most of the time by myself because then I won’t be sucked into trying to stay with people who are having a better day than me or feeling as though I need to hold back to stay with people who aren’t as quick.”

And I thought my goodness, you know, what a smart way to go about a professional approach to training realizing what your personal strengths and weaknesses are and aligning your training program to maximize those benefits. A very, very intuitive and bright guy and obviously paid off for him.

JESSE: Yeah. And inside that story is the whole idea of trusting the process, right. And I think that’s, especially for young athletes, one of the most difficult things is knowing down the road, whether it’s three months, six months, nine months, 18 months, like you’re going to be much better if you just focus on today. Don’t worry about that next champion– In his case, nine months down the road, the next championship. Just work on today. It’ll all come together over time. I think that’s the toughest part.

BOB: Yeah. And obviously, it takes a lot of years of experience to know when to push yourself and when you need to back off. And as we’ve talked about before, knowing when to back off, and actually backing off is very difficult for motivated athletes. But it’s so essential to allow the body time to adapt.

JESSE: Yeah. Dr. Bob, as we’re starting to run short on time, there’s a question I’m asking everybody this season because it transects all sports and disciplines, really. I like to know from you, what do you think the purpose of sport is?

BOB: Wow, that’s a real metaphysical question there.

JESSE: A little bit.

BOB: Yeah. Well, from a personal standpoint, I think it should be all about enjoyment and setting goals, and challenge yourself. For me, it’s just a matter of just trying to see how far I can push myself, how much I can improve. It’s kind of both a physical as well as an intellectual challenge for me to try, particularly around the training aspect of it. And I think from a societal standpoint, it’s a great– sport is a great opportunity for a change of mindset, relief, like going to the movies.

You have a little time out from the hectic nature and stressful nature of lives that most of us lead. And it’s just a nice breather to enjoy something different and marvel in the accomplishments of highly fit, highly talented athletes.

JESSE: Solid answer. Dr. Bob, if people want to pick up the book, get in touch with you, where can they do that?

BOB: Well, I haven’t checked Amazon recently, but I’m assuming it’s available there.

JESSE: Probably.

BOB: They can go right to the Human Kinetics is the publisher, Human Kinetics website for both. And it’s, I think available in Kindle as an ebook. Both as the softcover as well as the ebook, it should be easy to find.

JESSE: Yeah. If you’ve gotten this far into the interview, then you probably should go ahead and pick up the book. Seriously, not just as like a Dr. Bob’s here to push the book. But in all honesty, it’s a very, very helpful guy. Even if you’re just training by yourself, you don’t have a coach or anything. Or maybe, in particular, if you don’t have a coach, it’s gonna help you in a lot of ways. So, check out that book. Pick it up. Dr. Bob, thanks for hanging out with me today.

BOB: Hey, you’re welcome Jesse. I appreciate it. It was fun.

JESSE: Take care.

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